Christian Schubert

"The measures kill more people than Covid-19"

Christian Schubert is a psychoneuroimmunologist, doctor, psychologist and psychotherapist from Innsbruck, Austria. He has been analysing the interactions of the psyche, brain and immune system for over 25 years. Society, Schubert says, has been emotionally abused and traumatised by government, media and science during the Covid crisis by being permanently put under severe stress. The doctor speaks of a "machine medicine" and "machine ideology of our culture." Dr. Schubert asks: what happens to the many people who get vaccinated against their will in order to get their "freedom" back? In this interview for Multipolar, he also describes why many people cannot let go of the official narrative.

CAMILLA HILDEBRANDT, 11. März 2022, 0 Kommentare, PDF

Note: This interview ist also available in German and Spanish.

Multipolar: Dr Schubert, the Health Minister's prediction that there could be 500 deaths a day in Germany in case we reduce the measures goes in the same direction: creating panic. But you go even further and say what is currently happening is abuse. What exactly do you mean by that?

Schubert: People have been put under very severe stress, that is exactly what happened. It was not just acute stress that was induced. Acute stress is something physiological and could be helpful in the context of the pandemic. You could say that you put people in a condition in which they take actions to protect themselves. We know this from Walter Cannon's stress research, "Fight and flight". The human being is well equipped for this, psycho-physiologically. He becomes more alert, concentrates on the stressor, brings up the whole system in his physiology that helps him to cope with the threat. The heart pumps faster, breathing becomes shallower, muscles tense. That is one side.

But what happened from the beginning is that this stress has been made sure that it does not stop, that it becomes chronic. There is now some evidence. Many people are familiar with this leaked paper from the German Federal Ministry of the Interior, where things were said that can clearly be assumed to cause chronic stress in the population. It doesn't even stop with the children. They are told: ´You have to watch out that you don't kill your parents and grandparents, so now you have to go along with everything we tell you´. This is not about acute stress, this is chronic stress. Children are made fearful and panicked, guilt and a guilty conscience are brought up. These are phenomena which you can't contain once you've set them free, especially if the parents go along with it. Then the children are lost. That has to be said quite clearly.

And this is where the antennae start to go up for me as a psychotherapist. When violence is involved, when people's integrity is in danger. And when I talk about integrity, I'm not only talking about physical integrity, but also psychological integrity. I got the impression very quickly that when it comes to people's integrity, privacy, and intimacy, there have been assaults here that go far beyond what people would ever allow another person to do.

Multipolar: Again, back to the question: who is abusing whom?

Schubert: In the legal concept, abuse requires a conscious activity. We definitely have active aspects in such statements by the Federal Ministry of the Interior, which we can demonstrably see today, which are established. It was like this from the very beginning. So I would say there is the fact of emotional abuse.

Multipolar: So it's about psychological abuse?

Schubert: Exactly. We have three types in psychiatry: sexual abuse, emotional abuse, and physical abuse. The sexual abuse we leave out. Physical abuse we see when people are forced to be vaccinated. More about that later. But what I also see clearly is emotional abuse: people are consciously put into fear and panic and chronic stress in the last two years. And this is not stopping. A certain narrative has been used from the beginning until today, the narrative: ´there is a killer virus, you have to be afraid of it and you can only eliminate the danger if you get vaccinated´. These three aspects ´killer virus, fear and vaccination´ are directly related to each other and shape the narrative of the COVID-19 crisis, especially in the Western world. For in the eastern part of our world, there are definitely countries where the immune system was brought to centre stage, very early on. For example, in India by the Ministry of Health on Ayush. Ayush is the abbreviation for Ayurveda, Yoga, Naturopathy, Unani, Siddha, Sowa-Rigpa and Homoeopathy.

06/2021: General guidelines for parents: “Parents should model appropriate behaviour so that their children follow their footsteps. Maintain your own physical and mental health so that you are able to support your children. Bond with the children emotionally and nurture this bond meaningfully. Give them unconditional love and a sense of security.“

This is a completely different approach to people, a holistic one. They reacted immediately and said: We have to strengthen the immune system of the population. The Vaidas, experienced doctors of traditional medicine, were selected by the government to work out a programme to bring traditional medicine to the population. So they can, for example, take special care of their immune system by eating certain food components. There, a completely different theme was very quickly attended to, namely the human being and the immune system. In the western world, that didn't exist.

Multipolar: In concrete terms, you are saying that society has been and is being abused by politicians, scientists and the media?

Schubert: Yes. I would say there is a trio infernale. Conventional medicine as a system belongs to this trio. But be careful: there are many colleagues of mine in conventional medicine who are trying very hard to see the human being in the patient, but are partly breaking down because they have never learned how to deal with people. That is the problem with conventional medicine. This is already imposed on the students in medical school, the human being is left behind, and in the end only the human machine is analysed and treated. That is the big problem of this system of conventional medicine, which I criticise very much. Conventional medicine with its epistemological errors. It is wrong to see the human being dualistically, i.e. to separate body, soul and spirit from each other. The same applies to reductionism, which is also an epistemological error of conventional medicine. It tries to explain the big picture by analysing the smallest building blocks of life, but this is not possible.

Dualism and reductionism are old mistakes of medicine that have not been corrected for centuries. This is already evident in the structure of the university course, which consists almost exclusively of subjects that deal with the material in the human being. And if the student is introduced to a machine world, then as a machine doctor he will also face the patients. If he doesn't get a different approach from the beginning, epistemologically, then that's it.

With these mistakes, conventional medicine now meets the Corona pandemic, advises the government and puts colleagues who preferably come from the laboratory in the foreground. But these mostly deal with germs in their research and do not have the psychosocial life of people in mind at all. They have neither learned nor do they have the right - in my opinion - to be particularly active in taking responsibility here. Because once again, if virologists, infectiologists or veterinarians, or whoever is in charge of advising the government in Germany, are now suddenly being asked about sociological issues, and ultimately have to take responsibility for decisions that go far beyond what these people normally research and represent, then I ask myself: How can this happen?

It can only happen if one thinks dualistically and reductionistically, as in conventional medicine, and says: it is only a matter of focusing on the body and the smallest components, i.e. the virus. The whole human being is forgotten and is not seen as valuable, important and significant. And this has happened in a frightening form in the last two years. In my opinion, Western medicine, conventional medicine, has revealed itself in its alienated form in the Covid crisis, and in doing so it has smashed itself against the wall.

Multipolar: The body as a machine is in the focus and the human being has been forgotten.

Schubert: Yes. We're going to have to deal with collateral damage over the next few decades because of forgetting this, and it's going to be severe. Many more people will die than would have ever died from Covid-19, if these alienating measures had not taken place. I mean lockdowns, closings of schools, etc., and in the end also vaccination, which fatally puts technology before nature, that is, the immune system. They are all consequences of misguided medicine advising governments.

Multipolar: Who are the other two in the trio infernale of societal abuse?

Schubert: The governments who have, I don't know, what interest. As you've seen, it's not necessarily the health of the population. I suspect it's about power, it's about narcissism, it's about staying in power, getting votes, political survival.

And then we come to the third of the trio infernale: the media, which of course have jumped on this train because they need ratings. And good ratings can be made with fear and panic and by making people desperate. We have seen that. I fear that this is also very much about paid media. Because how does the government really want to bring its opinions, which have been taken over from conventional medicine, to the people? The only way is through the media. And in order for the media to fully participate, a lot of things will probably have been manipulated in the background. So everything fits together well, everyone serves the other.

We know this from Michel Foucault and biopolitics. He said quite clearly: medicine and politics are connected, because in capitalism, politics needs an optimised human being, a healthy human being, so that he can contribute well to economic growth. It was also one of the first sentences, interestingly enough, in this leaked paper:

„Our society is like a machine, a growth engine. We have to keep this growth engine running, otherwise there will be a catastrophe.“

But that is entirely missing the point about human beings. It is about the machine society, the machine human being. And that is exactly what we have experienced in the last two years, that it's not about social and psychological issues, about psychosomatics. It ́s about the human machine and how it can be kept running. And with this, the most brutal action was taken against people who are emotional and social beings.

Multipolar: You mentioned in your talk on ServusTV that society is being abused and traumatised. Can you explain more on this?

Schubert: We were already a traumatised society before Covid-19, so beware of 'we want to go back to the former normality'. The Covid-19 crisis highlighted what happens when an already sick society slides into a pandemic. We have some evidence that over the last few decades there has been a significant increase in pathological phenomena, in illnesses, in society. So what is happening here? On one hand, we have "great" health systems that help us so "fabulously" and increase our life expectancy. But on the other hand, there are more and more diseases. Autoimmune diseases, cancers, cardiovascular diseases are increasing. Where do they come from? A reductionist would say: from genetics. A holistic physician would say: from culture and society.

As a psychoneuroimmunologist, I immediately assume that this is about dysfunctions in our society, which ultimately leads to immune disorders in human beings. And with that we have paved the road for further illnesses and reduced life expectations. All this is now threatening us. The Covid-19 crisis has made the first big step that our life expectations will decrease. It's not going up any more. The collateral damage that we now have to expect from this crisis will reduce life expectancy in the coming decades. We already have the first indications of that. It has been calculated for Switzerland that three months of lockdown and school closings cost 1.76 million years of life because of the associated psychopathological consequences - we are talking about suicide, depression and traumatisation, for example. This makes the government measures 55 times more damaging than the virus itself.

Multipolar: So the psychological and physical damage caused by the Covid 19 measures reinforce the predispositions in the already sick society?

Schubert: Psychoneuroimmunology has shown for years, if not decades, how damaging trauma and abusive experiences are to the health of children and adolescents in particular. So when we talk about abuse and being traumatised in the context of the Covid measures, it is essential that we focus on the most vulnerable in our society: the children and young people who have been massively affected by all the measures. And we know from psychoneuroimmunology that when children and adolescents experience severe psychosocial stress in the first 18 years, their life expectations are dramatically reduced. This is because they develop cognitive-emotional-motivational disorders, get into a severe psychosocial disorder and then develop inflammatory diseases such as autoimmune diseases, cardiovascular diseases and cancer due to all the stress.

Very important: of course there are ways to help these children at a very early age. It's just that the dualism in medicine doesn't allow you to see psychosocial interventions like social support and psychotherapy as highly effective medical preventive measures. Instead, people mainly see surgery, medication and other aspects of physicality and materiality as the only helpful things. However, these treatments are usually only used when it ́s already too late, i.e. the traumatised person has already become physically ill. But psychotherapy is still highly effective even when it comes to physical changes. We know this from psychoneuroimmunology. That means we would have the tools to help these children and adolescents very effectively at a very early stage, namely with appropriate psychosocial treatments. But I'm afraid that won't happen because medicine continues to keep its epistemological fallacies.

Multipolar: People have been traumatised by the extreme propagation of panic which makes them think they are dying or endangering someone else. And this especially affects young people and children.

Schubert: Yes. We were forced to watch people being systematically brought to misery, even though it was known from the beginning that there were high-risk groups that needed to be protected: the elderly and the pre-diseased. Protecting these people, that's what we should have done in the Covid-19 crisis. But a scenario was created over the whole population which was traumatising, where people were consciously frightened and panicked and put into a chronic stress that was disproportionate. Because pay attention, that is a very important point: many people will now cry out and say: „Covid-19 is a catastrophe, we have to weigh it up. We have to scare people so that all these lockdowns, school closings and vaccination measures are really taken seriously and the people all go along with them.“

But wait: that these brutal social measures are required to stop the virus is not true. We knew that from the very beginning. We knew from the beginning of the crisis that Sweden was going the right way, where hundreds of thousands didn't die, as was predicted, if you let it go. No lockdown was announced there and no school closings were implemented. And the infection numbers among the children did not explode, or among the teachers and among the family members. That means we had immediate results. The first studies on this were also carried out early on in Austria with the Ischgl drama. Here, too, it was clearly demonstrated that there was only the high-risk group of elderly, pre-diseased people, of whom very few died of covid. Dr. John P. Ioannidis from Stanford found out that we are facing 0.12 percent mortality worldwide with Covid. So we knew from the beginning who it was affecting and who we had to protect. But that was not taken into account. This is where there was wrong advice. This is a disaster.

Multipolar: I would like to add that people were also traumatised by being deprived of their emotional connection, by being prohibited from contact, such as within the family, being blamed. Many people accepted it.

Schubert: Absolutely. Even the elderly who were abandoned. It couldn't have been more cruel. Of course, when we talk about abuse, we are also talking about abuse of power. And this abuse of power does not only go from those in government down to the population, but the whole thing is passed on within the population. People suddenly become powerful over rules and over obligations, so they are no longer under control. The way teachers deal with children or nurses deal with the elderly is beyond words! Today, there are old people who are unvaccinated and so are excluded from a social life in nursing homes. It has to be said that this is killing them. These are things that are unforgivable. And it is very important to me to emphasise that before we move on to the ´new normality´, we have to work through this and call these people to justice. Because for me, new normality means healed and healthy normality. A lot will be needed to really build up something new.

Multipolar: You talk about the aggressor who exercises power or abuses others. But back to the victims of abuse. We know from psychotherapy that victims of abuse, even of a psychological nature, often refuse to acknowledge it. In our case, we have to work through a lot and first acknowledge that it happened. This brings up the question: how could it happen that a whole country allowed itself to be traumatised, even before Covid?

Schubert: That's a very good question, and I've been working on it lately, especially with Matthias Desmet from Belgium, who is studying Mass Formation. How can it happen that such a large mass of people go in one direction, as if synchronised, and accept even the worst consequences for their health. Also life expectancy and long-term collateral damage, also caused by the Covid vaccination - apparently without criticism? Data and results are already available to show that the vaccination is not as harmless as is always said, that it is also not as effective as is always said. And yet people run uncritically from one booster to the next. I ask myself: what is wrong with these people?

Researchers and psychologists like Matthias Desmet from Belgium, refer a lot to the psychoanalyst Gustave le Bon from the turn of the century, have dealt with this question. Desmet assumes that a large part of our society has been in a process of alienation for decades. Because Late Capitalist and neoliberal developments in society, with values that have little to do with being human and living, but with performance, money and economics, have contributed to this. These are all cultural developments that ultimately produce a sick society and thus sick people.

Indeed, we now know from a lot of research that the conditions Matthias Desmet postulates for a mass psychosis in the Covid-19 context have been empirically proven. There is, for example, the social isolation that has been increasing for decades as a basic condition for the mass psychosis now occurring in the Covid-19 crisis. People have had little contact with each other for a long time. They often live isolated, have hardly any friends, and families break up more often. Extended families are fewer or non-existent.

Multipolar: Is social isolation a big factor in society's illness?

Schubert: Yes. We also have worthlessness and meaninglessness as another condition in our society. Many people no longer see any meaning in their professional activities, they are like machines. There we are again with the machine-medicine or machine-ideology of our culture. I'm not telling you anything new there either. Humanity is missing meaning and meaninglessness. Relationships are missing. Social isolation and meaninglessness are mixed. Anyone who is a loving parent knows about relationships and meaning, that they are one, and the same, and can both keep you healthy and make you ill. Social life is the elixir of life and meaning.

Then we have the third factor, which is fear. Diffuse fears are often the result of social isolation and meaninglessness. We know from many studies that anxiety-related illnesses have risen massively in the last decades. Anxiety is very often associated with depression. So even before Covid-19, we were already dealing with a dangerous increase in mental illnesses in society. Every fifth person now has an anxiety disorder. That's already a high percentage. Then it is not only about anxiety, but we also have frustration and aggression as another condition for the present Covid-19 mass psychosis. This is very dangerous as far as the future of the Covid-19 crisis is concerned. How will these people react when the thing is exposed, when it tilts and crumbles and this sick side of society is confronted with facts it doesn't like at all?

Multipolar: Please can we discuss the development of mass psychosis...

Schubert: This diseased part of society that I have been talking about, according to Desmet, acts mostly unconsciously. For me, that means that the medical profession, government officials and the media also act unconsciously for the greater part, because they are themselves part of this sick society. So we can assume that a not at all small part of doctors is also subject to the increasing alienation, and thus unconsciously creates a certain scenario. And this scenario is the Western medical narrative on the Covid-19 crisis: 'killer virus! You must be careful! You must be afraid of the killer virus! And at the same time we offer you a possible treatment, namely vaccination´. This is extremely welcome, especially among those who can now finally project their fears, their diffuse fears, onto something, namely the virus.

That's why so many people go along with it, because on the one hand they can finally project their inexplicable fears, which actually have to do with their own traumatisation, with their dysfunctional biographical backgrounds, onto this virus. And on the other hand, they get the solution for their problems delivered with the vaccination. From the beginning Merkel said, the pandemic will only stop when we have the vaccine. And thereupon these people subconsciously say to themselves: ´I have clustered my fear and I can also "treat" it with a vaccination'. And now comes the convincing factor: ´I also have a peer group´. These are all the other frightened people who are unconsciously just as happy that there is finally a virus on which they can project their fear, and they can make go away with the vaccination. Now, in order not to lose this new social community, there must be no other narrative than the ´killer-virus-fear-vaccination´ narrative.

The self-responsibility that the immune system implies is not existent in these people. Body, mind and soul are split. They are alienated. They will not leave their narrative, which is given to them every day by the government, the doctors and the media. Why? Because then they would have to face the deeper issues that are actually responsible for their fears. And they would be more likely to give themselves the twentieth booster, instead of losing their social connections, which they finally have back. So they unconsciously love Covid-19 because it gives them an exit from their problems. In reality, it is the end point of a drama that will ultimately kill them. Covid-19 is the lived dualism of an alienated machine ideology of medicine.

Multipolar: In this diseased society, where the mind and body are separated, the aggressor will also appear. You also say: ´I can now attribute a certain psychopathological aspect to these people who bring so much brutality and misanthropy upon this country.´

Schubert: If we now want to discharge, so to speak, those responsible for this human disaster, then we would not accuse them of malice, but of illness. At least some of them. One could say: okay, you are also alienated, you came to power because society put you there. Those who see body, mind and soul united will see cultural and societal problems. But of course there will be many in power who are mentally ill and cannot bring body, mind and soul together. They will probably cry out in pain when they turn all their life frustration and all their life problems, their brutality, ultimately against themselves in the sense of a somatoform reaction. They are also victims of this culture. And they were given power because of our meritocracy and our pre-diseased culture.

And all other power players from medicine, the media world are there too. There are only a few in power who think differently, but who have no chance of standing up for their view of humanity, and perhaps break down because of it. And then at some point they descend in this hierarchy. But I can only say congratulations! I can only shake hands with those who go into psychotherapy and look for other values in life beyond money and power. I do a lot of psychotherapeutic work with people like that.

Multipolar: Are the so-called aggressors mainly narcissists, and to a large extent power seekers?

Schubert: This is how it is. That is what counts in our society. We actually just have to look inside ourselves and ask: what is really seen as admirable in our society? Is it those who drive Ferraris, who positively regulate their self-esteem issues and related frustrations, and who surround themselves with wealth to show how valuable they are? In reality, if you look closely, they are poor wretches who need to do that to compensate in some way for their low self-worth. And on the other side we have power people who delegate, who sit in positions of power and tell others what to do. These are the values of our meritocracy. We have a number of other personality traits, but they clearly fall through the cracks in our society. Most of those who have achieved money and power are religiously worshipped.

Multipolar: How will we move forward with a traumatised, abused society that you believe has existed for decades, and is now experiencing the Covid 19 crisis as an add-on. Is there a real possibility of coming to terms with it?

Schubert: Matthias Desmet says: We have 30 %, they are very difficult to get back. They are pre-diseased and have now got into a situation where it is almost impossible to get them back. But there are 40 %, he says, who actually just follow the mainstream, who assume whatever the government, medicine and the media say is right. There's no criticism. These 40 % can potentially be brought into a different narrative. But they need data for that. And, of course, this data is already available in the other media.

Since the beginning of 2020, we have had the alternative media, especially on the net. There the Covid-19 crisis has been seen in a completely different way, from a completely different perspective. But these people do not have this information. They need to be slowly informed now. And what is educating them is the vaccine damage. I can imagine that in this dramatic situation that is happening at the moment, people who are personally affected are realising more and more that what they have been told over the last two years is a big pack of lies. In all areas, what the meaning of the lockdown was, as well as the school closings, but also the meaning of the vaccinations, who really earns from it and so on.

I rely on this a little bit as the one who belongs to a group that was critical from the beginning. That is 30 % or so. I hope it is 30 percent who have been critical of this Covid-19 crisis from the beginning and have spoken out and committed themselves accordingly. Then there is a chance. Unless there is something else going on in the background. And Covid is in the end only a tool to guide the population in a certain direction. A tool of controllability, surveillance, digitalisation, absolute dependency and further dehumanisation.

Multipolar: Dehumanisation, such as the possibility that parents obey fatal instructions from governments and ignore the fact that these harm their children?

Schubert: I would say similar are also sentences like: 'I want my freedom back: So that I can get my freedom back, I'll get vaccinated.' For me, that is a sentence that is very dangerous. Because it shows an undemocratic mindset. You allow something that violates your own bodily integrity, you allow yourself to be abused physically and traumatised. As far as children are concerned, we don't hear so much about vaccine damage. But we can't evaluate it yet. With every booster, it gets more dangerous when it comes to damage and immune development disorders.

But again, we have the opportunity to create a new culture for those who have not done this with their children, those who have not gone along uncritically. We have the opportunity to reach out to those who have been vaccinated and to say: we are all victims. I think a big rethinking will be necessary, and we should reach out to these people, if they want to, and walk together towards a future that is healthier and more humane.

About the interviewee: Christian Schubert, Prof. Dr. med., Dr. rer. nat., M. Sc., is a medical doctor, psychologist and medical psychotherapist. He is Head of the Laboratory of Psychoneuroimmunology at the Department of Psychiatry, Psychotherapy, Psychosomatics and Medical Psychology at the Medical University of Innsbruck, Austria. From 2013 to 2020, he was a member of the Board of the Academy of Integrated Medicine Thure von Uexküll (AIM). Schubert has published numerous scientific articles and several books, the most recent of which is the non-fiction book "Stresstest Corona - Warum wir eine neue Medizin brauchen" (Corona Stress Test - Why we need a new medicine), published in December 2021.


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